I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I think your argument breaks down and I will explain why.
When it came to the Asian grooming gangs, in which terrible crimes were committed by Muslim men against white young girls, the Muslim communities in which theses individuals operated did not report them to the police, even though some people must have known exactly what was going on.
I certainly don't think that would have happened amongst similar Christian communities where people put the law over and above their religious affiliations.
I definitely think there is an issue with not more Muslim's speaking out against these crimes. I am unsure if the reason is fear of doing so or ostracising from their communities or what. But if you take for instance the FLDS you have women there who also keep quiet as their daughters are married off to old men. Sometimes children at the time.
Utter rubbish, islam is a cult there are no moderate muslims, they operste under entirely different rules to christianity, likening a few sick cults to a 2billion + ideaology that has bee responsible for the deaths of millions is not a real or proper comparison. They are moderate in public, never publicly decry or criticse the extremists of their cult and openly admit to being permitted to lie to further their religion,( TAQIYA). No comparison to be made here.
The FLDS has around 10,000 members globally. That doesn't compare to two billion of course but that is only one Christian death cult. They can't compare in numbers no matter what but the numbers when you add all these Christian death cults together is not small. Scientology is the fastest growing branch of Christianity and most mainstream Christians believe that is also a cult.
I think that you have a real problem with christianity, there is a massive difference between christians as awhole and islam as a whole, your trying to lump in group of people who have nothing i common with main stream christianity, certainly scientology isnt a chrisstian based ideaology. I have never seen a large group of muslims in any country let alone muslim majority countries demonstating or protesting for the rights of christians or jews, indeed they are notable for their silence on controversial issues such as corruption ,subverstion and swxual assault.but we have so called christians falling over themselves to accomadate islam, in their churches and cathedarls, your so far of travk here. This is a much ,much igger issue than.most people are comfortable acknoeledging.
Have you forgotten how quiet the Catholic Church was over thousands if not million of children being molested?
Most people understood my pov even while disagreeing you obviously didn’t.
Nowhere in my post did I compare Christianity as a whole to Islam not in a real sense. So no good defending anything I have said with someone who misunderstood and is arguing against things I never said. You are the only one so far to
In your first sentence btw you declare yourself to be a Christian and also declare yourself to not be acting like a Christian. Where does. your Bible say be suspicious of everyone and assume things about them you can't know? It actually teaches the opposite of. I have no problem with Christianity I dislike hypocrisy in any area of life, but hey so did Jesus when it came to him!
Their belief that the Koran is the final word of god, which says all non Muslims are second class, doesn't leave any room for negotiation!! It doesn't allow Muslims to accept other religions as being valid or worthy in any sense. Often the small number of Islamist take over in countries such as Iran and Lebanon and many more!! This has led to execution of non believers. How can other religions work with this ideology
With a 2 tier system in place in the UK , the way white people are being underscored over immigrants… legal and non legal and typically third world in origin ,I can understand their outrage and the way the government responds sympathetically to them at the expense of English patriots attitudes.
Mainly … I believe, to maintain votes and to remain in power.. which would suit the globalist agenda of modern communism .
It is definitely to garner votes in part at least. Election fraud if you like. Commonwealth countries automatically get a vote if they come here. Does anyone know if that works the other way around too? That we get a vote if we moved to a country that is part of the Commonwealth?
Whilst I understand what you say I believe that your argument is rooted in a western and deeply flawed understanding of islam. Unlike almost all other religions islam has developed a system of almost complete control over it's members. The concept and reality of 'Ummah' means that religious authority comes not only from the Mosque but also from family, culture, the accepted legal structure (sharia} and societal pressure. This is why we have the complete failure of islamic communities to integrate into wider society and such unwillingness to criticize fellow muslims for rape gangs or extremist beliefs. The horror of 'honour' killings illustrates the depth of this control.
Leaving aside how many is plenty, the point I would make is that divorcing your husband is so much easier for the vast majority non muslim women. A divorce within the muslim community will in most cases result in severe pressure being applied by the families involved, there will often be a sense of shame and failure that will be amplified by the community. Should the divorce be settled according to Sharia law there is every possibility that custody of any children will be awarded to the Father or his family. Most women who divorce face financial upheaval, loss some friends and maybe their home. Muslim women can and do find themselves losing family, friends, children and being ostracized by their entire community.
The Muslim women I know of who have divorced their husbands, have their children, are are financially independent . (not sure about community) Muslim women come here and see how free Western women are. Many of them are no longer willing to put up with being treated as less than. I’m sure what you say is right for many women yet for the one’s I know personally the opposite is true. I don’t know what it would be that makes for the difference between some women and others, though.
The problem with your argument is that moderate Christians are simply obeying the precepts of Christianity. Moderate Muslims, on the other hand, have chosen to ignore some key commands in Islamic scripture. For example:
Quran 9:5 (Surah At-Tawbah – “the Verse of the Sword”): “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…”
• Quran 9:29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day… of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
• Quran 5:51: “O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another…”
• Quran 98:6: “Indeed, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”
Surah At-Tawbah (9:5): "...kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."
• Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:51): "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies (awliya)..."
Do you know how some of those verses there are almost replicas of verses in the Christian Bible? There are lots of things I cannot get my head around in the Christian Bible btw. Like how the angel passed over all the houses and killed all the male firstborn children. It's hard to reconcile that with a loving god.
The pharoah had plenty of chances to let the Hebrews go so it was a last resort. Those who put the blood of the lamb on the door posts were spared. It became a type of Christ's blood shed for forgiveness of sin.
I admit I don't know a lot about the Islam religion I have no interest in it and there are only so many hours in a day. But I know people. And human nature. WE have what they call lukewarm Christians and I believe the same applies to Islam. They may not admit it openly but it's human nature. I know women here who grew up as Muslims and still call themselves such. They. never pray, never go to a Mosque, never cover their faces etc etc. They still don't eat bacon, however.
I don't think the direct comparison to Christianity holds. How many Christians support Hamas or equivalent? How many Christians are avowed anti-Semites? How many support an equivalent of Sharia, FGM and so on?
How many Christians are on terror watchlists? How many Christian terrorist attacks are there annually?
These practices are widely accepted among the significant numbers of the Muslim population. But the moderates don't agree, you say. Fine. But how are they able to affect change among their coreligionists? What course correction can they apply to the worst excesses of their religion?
I'm not arguing 'moderate' Muslims don't exist. I prefer to call them lax Muslims, because there is only Islam, not 'moderate Islam'. But my point is, what are they for? Who do they vote for? Do they stand up and decry the worst aspects of their religion, like Raja Miah does? Or are these so-called moderates the grass that hides the snake?
I get your point. I just think the numbers at scale kind of stymie the main thrust of your argument. I'm personally still very much on the fence when it comes to moderate Muslims. I have occasional interactions with a Muslim bloke on here, even he didn't know how anything about this group votes. I would say that if moderate Muslims vote for Muslim politicians (where applicable) on Muslim issues, the nomenclature ‘moderate’ becomes less meaningful. Perhaps the recent Reform candidature of Zahawi, Cunningham and Yusuf will encourage more and more to align themselves openly with British concerns? I think we need such a cohort to stand up now, because multiculturalism is in the doldrums…
No, sure, I didn't take that from your post. And look, many people know a nice Muslim or two or more. It isn't about individuals, it's about the demographic at scale.
Here is food for thought on this subject. Take Indonesia. It's the largest Muslim country in the world. When the current leader was elected he vowed to get rid of Radical Islam. And to reverse the indoctrination of children there. He did just that. And Indonesia has become an example for the rest of the world how multiculturalism can work by that I am not advocating mass migration god forbid we need that reversed but different cultures there live side by side in peace.
I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I think your argument breaks down and I will explain why.
When it came to the Asian grooming gangs, in which terrible crimes were committed by Muslim men against white young girls, the Muslim communities in which theses individuals operated did not report them to the police, even though some people must have known exactly what was going on.
I certainly don't think that would have happened amongst similar Christian communities where people put the law over and above their religious affiliations.
I definitely think there is an issue with not more Muslim's speaking out against these crimes. I am unsure if the reason is fear of doing so or ostracising from their communities or what. But if you take for instance the FLDS you have women there who also keep quiet as their daughters are married off to old men. Sometimes children at the time.
Utter rubbish, islam is a cult there are no moderate muslims, they operste under entirely different rules to christianity, likening a few sick cults to a 2billion + ideaology that has bee responsible for the deaths of millions is not a real or proper comparison. They are moderate in public, never publicly decry or criticse the extremists of their cult and openly admit to being permitted to lie to further their religion,( TAQIYA). No comparison to be made here.
The FLDS has around 10,000 members globally. That doesn't compare to two billion of course but that is only one Christian death cult. They can't compare in numbers no matter what but the numbers when you add all these Christian death cults together is not small. Scientology is the fastest growing branch of Christianity and most mainstream Christians believe that is also a cult.
I think that you have a real problem with christianity, there is a massive difference between christians as awhole and islam as a whole, your trying to lump in group of people who have nothing i common with main stream christianity, certainly scientology isnt a chrisstian based ideaology. I have never seen a large group of muslims in any country let alone muslim majority countries demonstating or protesting for the rights of christians or jews, indeed they are notable for their silence on controversial issues such as corruption ,subverstion and swxual assault.but we have so called christians falling over themselves to accomadate islam, in their churches and cathedarls, your so far of travk here. This is a much ,much igger issue than.most people are comfortable acknoeledging.
Have you forgotten how quiet the Catholic Church was over thousands if not million of children being molested?
Most people understood my pov even while disagreeing you obviously didn’t.
Nowhere in my post did I compare Christianity as a whole to Islam not in a real sense. So no good defending anything I have said with someone who misunderstood and is arguing against things I never said. You are the only one so far to
In your first sentence btw you declare yourself to be a Christian and also declare yourself to not be acting like a Christian. Where does. your Bible say be suspicious of everyone and assume things about them you can't know? It actually teaches the opposite of. I have no problem with Christianity I dislike hypocrisy in any area of life, but hey so did Jesus when it came to him!
There is obviously an element of that for sure among some of them. One face in public and another in private.
Their belief that the Koran is the final word of god, which says all non Muslims are second class, doesn't leave any room for negotiation!! It doesn't allow Muslims to accept other religions as being valid or worthy in any sense. Often the small number of Islamist take over in countries such as Iran and Lebanon and many more!! This has led to execution of non believers. How can other religions work with this ideology
Christians believe the exact same thing about their Bible. And reject other religions because of it.
not true, otherwise Muslims wouldn't be allowed in the country to establish list and build Mosque
With a 2 tier system in place in the UK , the way white people are being underscored over immigrants… legal and non legal and typically third world in origin ,I can understand their outrage and the way the government responds sympathetically to them at the expense of English patriots attitudes.
Mainly … I believe, to maintain votes and to remain in power.. which would suit the globalist agenda of modern communism .
It is definitely to garner votes in part at least. Election fraud if you like. Commonwealth countries automatically get a vote if they come here. Does anyone know if that works the other way around too? That we get a vote if we moved to a country that is part of the Commonwealth?
Whilst I understand what you say I believe that your argument is rooted in a western and deeply flawed understanding of islam. Unlike almost all other religions islam has developed a system of almost complete control over it's members. The concept and reality of 'Ummah' means that religious authority comes not only from the Mosque but also from family, culture, the accepted legal structure (sharia} and societal pressure. This is why we have the complete failure of islamic communities to integrate into wider society and such unwillingness to criticize fellow muslims for rape gangs or extremist beliefs. The horror of 'honour' killings illustrates the depth of this control.
In the UK we have plenty of Muslim women who are the ones who divorced their husband. How would that tie in with Radical Islam?
Leaving aside how many is plenty, the point I would make is that divorcing your husband is so much easier for the vast majority non muslim women. A divorce within the muslim community will in most cases result in severe pressure being applied by the families involved, there will often be a sense of shame and failure that will be amplified by the community. Should the divorce be settled according to Sharia law there is every possibility that custody of any children will be awarded to the Father or his family. Most women who divorce face financial upheaval, loss some friends and maybe their home. Muslim women can and do find themselves losing family, friends, children and being ostracized by their entire community.
The Muslim women I know of who have divorced their husbands, have their children, are are financially independent . (not sure about community) Muslim women come here and see how free Western women are. Many of them are no longer willing to put up with being treated as less than. I’m sure what you say is right for many women yet for the one’s I know personally the opposite is true. I don’t know what it would be that makes for the difference between some women and others, though.
The problem with your argument is that moderate Christians are simply obeying the precepts of Christianity. Moderate Muslims, on the other hand, have chosen to ignore some key commands in Islamic scripture. For example:
Quran 9:5 (Surah At-Tawbah – “the Verse of the Sword”): “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…”
• Quran 9:29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day… of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
• Quran 5:51: “O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another…”
• Quran 98:6: “Indeed, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”
Surah At-Tawbah (9:5): "...kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."
• Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:51): "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies (awliya)..."
I don't disagree and believe they do just that. Which is how for instance we have a female Muslim as the Home Secretary.
Do you know how some of those verses there are almost replicas of verses in the Christian Bible? There are lots of things I cannot get my head around in the Christian Bible btw. Like how the angel passed over all the houses and killed all the male firstborn children. It's hard to reconcile that with a loving god.
The pharoah had plenty of chances to let the Hebrews go so it was a last resort. Those who put the blood of the lamb on the door posts were spared. It became a type of Christ's blood shed for forgiveness of sin.
Introduce yourself to the phrase ‘Taqiyya’
I admit I don't know a lot about the Islam religion I have no interest in it and there are only so many hours in a day. But I know people. And human nature. WE have what they call lukewarm Christians and I believe the same applies to Islam. They may not admit it openly but it's human nature. I know women here who grew up as Muslims and still call themselves such. They. never pray, never go to a Mosque, never cover their faces etc etc. They still don't eat bacon, however.
I don't think the direct comparison to Christianity holds. How many Christians support Hamas or equivalent? How many Christians are avowed anti-Semites? How many support an equivalent of Sharia, FGM and so on?
How many Christians are on terror watchlists? How many Christian terrorist attacks are there annually?
These practices are widely accepted among the significant numbers of the Muslim population. But the moderates don't agree, you say. Fine. But how are they able to affect change among their coreligionists? What course correction can they apply to the worst excesses of their religion?
I'm not arguing 'moderate' Muslims don't exist. I prefer to call them lax Muslims, because there is only Islam, not 'moderate Islam'. But my point is, what are they for? Who do they vote for? Do they stand up and decry the worst aspects of their religion, like Raja Miah does? Or are these so-called moderates the grass that hides the snake?
The point was not that they compare in that way but they also have and have had serious death cults in the name of Christianity.
I get your point. I just think the numbers at scale kind of stymie the main thrust of your argument. I'm personally still very much on the fence when it comes to moderate Muslims. I have occasional interactions with a Muslim bloke on here, even he didn't know how anything about this group votes. I would say that if moderate Muslims vote for Muslim politicians (where applicable) on Muslim issues, the nomenclature ‘moderate’ becomes less meaningful. Perhaps the recent Reform candidature of Zahawi, Cunningham and Yusuf will encourage more and more to align themselves openly with British concerns? I think we need such a cohort to stand up now, because multiculturalism is in the doldrums…
And to be clear nothing in my post means I don't want them gone. I do!
No, sure, I didn't take that from your post. And look, many people know a nice Muslim or two or more. It isn't about individuals, it's about the demographic at scale.
Here is food for thought on this subject. Take Indonesia. It's the largest Muslim country in the world. When the current leader was elected he vowed to get rid of Radical Islam. And to reverse the indoctrination of children there. He did just that. And Indonesia has become an example for the rest of the world how multiculturalism can work by that I am not advocating mass migration god forbid we need that reversed but different cultures there live side by side in peace.
Good discussion folks. I did think most people would disagree with me tbh and I was right lol but it was still a good discussion.