The Roman Catholic sex abuse scandal is very comparable. You can count on it that every priest that molested a child was seen as a holy man of god by his parishioners. But no one tars the entire Christian church with the same brush.
Excellent article very well put, in any religion you get good and bad, you will always have people who put their own interpretation on what is written. This does not mean they all have the same views or condone what others with extreme views do.
Thanks! I agree. It doesn’t mean I think they should be here in numbers. And that’s only because it puts our national security at risk when there is around 300 million extreme Islamists in the world. It’s not our job and shouldn’t be s something we have to think about if someone is a terrorist or not and when we never used to when Migration was controlled.
I don’t understand what you mean by your question exactly but how can you tell the difference between real Christians and hypocrites? Those who pretend to have faith but don’t?
And remember that Protestants used to consider the R.C. an apostate church.
But that doesn’t answer the question I asked in response. I am assuming you are a Christian, the people who go to the same church as you and have the same teachings you cannot tell the wheat from the chaff
Which is why the Bible also says there will be those that prophesied in your name etc and then will be told “I never knew you” To all outward appearances they are Christians. So my questions stands in response to your question.
I couldn’t put it better than the Bible does; I try to follow the teachings of Christ, not always successfully, but would not expect to find Christians in any church; as far as I can see, they are all apostates. Just occasionally one finds a true follower; as the man said: Many are called, but few are chosen.
Yes, and I refer to it for guidance and clarification frequently. As for your previous post, I don’t hold islam to a different standard; it seems that the fundamentalists are true muslims and those you term moderates are apostates. I did previously mention that I am not always entirely successful in following Christ; I do form opinions however.
But that's the point of article Phil There are fundamentalist Christians too who have also done great harm like the names mentioned in the article (which is just a few) but we don't write off all Christians because of them. Yet we do with Islam.
Danny Burmawi would disagree with you. He would say Christianity has changed, evolved over time. Modern Christianity is contextual. I'm a Catholic who took the contrceptive pill and divorced and remarried for example but more than that, the Church itself has changed. Burmawi would also say Islam has not changed however much individual Muslims might have. How do you respond to Burmawi?
And my view is that some adherants to any religion see the word of their scripture as unchanging law. If that law was designed for a specific time and place it does not always transport well to other times and places. Sometimes yes, but not always. Jewish dietary law makes sense in the context of people living in the Levant 3,000 years ago. A hot country with no refridgeration. Halal was the 6th century update on Kosher. I've got a fridge, thanks. And medicine if I get food poisoning. Having said that, there is a lot about how to live one's life that the Old Testament set down that still makes sense. The Ten Commandments are just common sense.
You get problems when someone claims that religious law is divinely inspired and therefore cannot be changed. No matter what the religion.
Many Christians still believe that homosexuality is an abomination. It all depends on interpretation. Which is also the same in Islam, interpretation.
I mean I have had Taqqia thrown at me a lot of times to argue against moderate Islam. Yet Muslim's are taught to be honest and not to lie the same as Christian, but many in the West believe they lie at any time.
There is a difference between political islam and moderate Islam. Do I agree with its' teachings no. But I also find some things in the Christian Bible quite shocking and awful.
You're right Christianity has evolved. But if you go back to the West say 75 years ago we were not then much different for instance in the women's place in societty than they are now. Can not they evolve too?
There are 1.2 billion Muslim's in the world and 15-25% of those are extremists. Which makes a possible 300 million of Extreme Muslim's that's a hell of a lot and a. helluva problem for the West. But that still leaves the 75% who are moderate Muslim's.
The reason for this is post is mainly how Zia Yusef is treated and why people left Reform beause he was giving a top role. Zia Is a Muslim but I don't think any reasonable person sees him as anything else but a British patriot.
I do not disagree with you. How Zia Yusuf and Laila Cunningham have been treated is disgraceful. I have a personal friend who is a Bangladeshi-born British citizen who is a Reform councillor who was elected in May 2025. He was photographed at an event where Zia and Nigel met newly elected councillors and the photo was published on a Reform social media page. Some of the comments were utterly disgusting. My friend recently completed the hajj but his day job is owning a pub. He serves alcohol and non-halal food. He is a family man and committed to looking after his residents in a small town in Lincs. And the vast majority of those people are white British or eastern European. He represents everyone.
But you didn't engage with my devil's advocate point. If you haven't read @danburmawi may I recommend him for an interesting perspective?
I thought I did by saying they are about 75 years behind us in some of our practices esp for instance when it comes to women's roles. That doesn't mean they won't evolve over time. It doesn't seem likely to me, but at one time for instance women to have the freedom they do now here and in the West was unthinkable. And it was only 100 years ago where women must not show even an ankle.
It's like the Crusades. The church did a lot of damage and during the Protestant Reformation. I get what you said about it has evolved but if Islam is ever going to evolve it will take much longer given the countries involved.
Muslim's still commit most of the terror attack if not all. It's hard to me think of a Terror attack. in the last 25 years that has not been by Islamic extremists.
But the problem is that I know of NO MODERATE MUSLIMS DECRYING EXTREMISM on internet sites. I live near a huge Muslim area. A teacher at a school tried to discuss Mohamed. His life is in danger. He’s gone into hiding. They want to kill him. He’s on,y young and his life is in ruins. More importantly it may be terminated. The police in the U.K. are too woke to be of much help.
So is he in hiding from extremists wishing to kill him? Maybe. I don’t know. But one thing I am certain of is I don’t hear ANY ‘Moderate’ Muslim protests. Either they are not moderate when it comes to criticism of big Mo, or they are shit scared of being targeted themselves. Neither option really backs up your argument.
I could produce dozens of instances. Thats just an EXAMPLE. And you know it. And I’m talking of the U.K. here, not 1.2 billion, in that population there are zillions of cases where extremism rules. Look at the Afghan women. All under servitude. Babies are chosen as brides! Women have to wear a burka and can’t even speak in public. No moderates speak up for them. They would be slaughtered.
Look at the decimation of Christians by extremists workdwide. No moderates speak up for them.
It’s you who’s being dishonest.
Show me the list of Muslim moderates speaking up against extremism.
Yes I do hate Islam. You seem to love it. Islam needs a reformation.
Sharia Law, First cousin marriage, Ha Al meat, homophobia, wearing of Islamic dress, especially the burka for example. These have no place in a modern Western democracy. And most of all Left wing idiots trying to destroy free speech by trying to introduce a law against Islamophobia.
You can think whatever you like with your hatred and deluded little world. You can’t have an intellectually honest discussion about it because your hatred precludes you from it.
You didn’t deal with the actual article at all anything but.
Why would I do that? It's got nothing to with the precept. I have seen a very brave Muslim woman stand before a camera a say it and say how she hates what this country has become.
If Christians faced persecution in the West the churches would be empty. But. you expect more of Muslims when actually the consequences for speaking out can be dire.
You are arguing now that Zia Yusef is the only honourable Muslim man in the country. That's absurd
No you twist words. Zia Yusef is a brave honourable Muslim. But where are the rest?
Normal every day Muslims. I see NO evidence of them speaking out on local web sites around Bradford. They are hurt by the Pakistani rape gangs, but either try to say whites do the same or say they are an aberration. NOT that Islam’s attitude to women is at fault.
That teacher who spoke about Mohamed ( the pedo ) had a mass demonstration at his school. He was scared shitless. I have seen NO accounts of moderate Muslims defending him.
Christians face retribution throughout the world. U.K. mostly Jews.
I think we are actually on the same side. The 2 forces holding back criticism of Islam are the mullahs and the extremists. Plus the Left backing up Islam under 2 Tier Kier.
Only a Reform ( and possibly Conservative coalition ) can erase these 2 stains on democracy. And allow Muslims to develop the courage to ‘come out’.
OK Thats it. I’ve had my say and will leave it at that.
And that is true. It doesn't mean because 75% of them are peaceful that I want them here as we d on't know who is who. We shouldn't have to think about it.
To say Christians don't commit terror on religious grounds is entirely false. It's all about interpretation. They rape children on religious grounds too. like in the LDS.
This article has the distinct whiff of a strawman about it. I had no inclination to know or understand more about the cultures or religions of others when the education system and telebox first started suggesting that I should and 40 years of being ever more persistently beaten over the head with eloquent, well reasoned and logical arguments for the benefits of multiculturalism has oddly made me even less inclined.
Comparing Islam and Christianity is not this easy. In theological terms the Old Testament is tempered and interpreted by the New. Jesus injunction to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", coupled with St Pauls instructions to Christians that they should respect and obey the laws of their government and as far as possible live at peace with everyone are powerful pointers to how Christians are expected to behave. The Koran, interpreted through the Hadith, does not temper religious law nor encourage peaceful and respectful relations with non believers who should be forced to pay taxes to stay violence against them or be executed without mercy. This uncompromising world view is exploited by Islamists to shame and radicalize those 'moderate' muslims into activism.
The Roman Catholic sex abuse scandal is very comparable. You can count on it that every priest that molested a child was seen as a holy man of god by his parishioners. But no one tars the entire Christian church with the same brush.
Excellent article very well put, in any religion you get good and bad, you will always have people who put their own interpretation on what is written. This does not mean they all have the same views or condone what others with extreme views do.
Thanks! I agree. It doesn’t mean I think they should be here in numbers. And that’s only because it puts our national security at risk when there is around 300 million extreme Islamists in the world. It’s not our job and shouldn’t be s something we have to think about if someone is a terrorist or not and when we never used to when Migration was controlled.
In small numbers this country was fine.
Exactly, we are only a small island and we are already full.
Given islamic teachings, how can one distinguish between real muslims and apostates?
I don’t understand what you mean by your question exactly but how can you tell the difference between real Christians and hypocrites? Those who pretend to have faith but don’t?
And remember that Protestants used to consider the R.C. an apostate church.
That’s very simple; true Christians follow the teachings of Christ, not the teachings of organised religions which have strayed far from those.
But that doesn’t answer the question I asked in response. I am assuming you are a Christian, the people who go to the same church as you and have the same teachings you cannot tell the wheat from the chaff
Which is why the Bible also says there will be those that prophesied in your name etc and then will be told “I never knew you” To all outward appearances they are Christians. So my questions stands in response to your question.
I couldn’t put it better than the Bible does; I try to follow the teachings of Christ, not always successfully, but would not expect to find Christians in any church; as far as I can see, they are all apostates. Just occasionally one finds a true follower; as the man said: Many are called, but few are chosen.
Well why do you hold Islam to a different standard? And btw your Bible calls you not to judge especially not others faith or not.
Have you even read the Entire Bible?
Yes, and I refer to it for guidance and clarification frequently. As for your previous post, I don’t hold islam to a different standard; it seems that the fundamentalists are true muslims and those you term moderates are apostates. I did previously mention that I am not always entirely successful in following Christ; I do form opinions however.
But that's the point of article Phil There are fundamentalist Christians too who have also done great harm like the names mentioned in the article (which is just a few) but we don't write off all Christians because of them. Yet we do with Islam.
There is no logic to that.
Excellent work 👏👏👏
Apparently I love Islam.
Don’t pay attention to idiots
Thanks!
Ok I'll play devil's advocate...
Danny Burmawi would disagree with you. He would say Christianity has changed, evolved over time. Modern Christianity is contextual. I'm a Catholic who took the contrceptive pill and divorced and remarried for example but more than that, the Church itself has changed. Burmawi would also say Islam has not changed however much individual Muslims might have. How do you respond to Burmawi?
And my view is that some adherants to any religion see the word of their scripture as unchanging law. If that law was designed for a specific time and place it does not always transport well to other times and places. Sometimes yes, but not always. Jewish dietary law makes sense in the context of people living in the Levant 3,000 years ago. A hot country with no refridgeration. Halal was the 6th century update on Kosher. I've got a fridge, thanks. And medicine if I get food poisoning. Having said that, there is a lot about how to live one's life that the Old Testament set down that still makes sense. The Ten Commandments are just common sense.
You get problems when someone claims that religious law is divinely inspired and therefore cannot be changed. No matter what the religion.
Many Christians still believe that homosexuality is an abomination. It all depends on interpretation. Which is also the same in Islam, interpretation.
I mean I have had Taqqia thrown at me a lot of times to argue against moderate Islam. Yet Muslim's are taught to be honest and not to lie the same as Christian, but many in the West believe they lie at any time.
There is a difference between political islam and moderate Islam. Do I agree with its' teachings no. But I also find some things in the Christian Bible quite shocking and awful.
You're right Christianity has evolved. But if you go back to the West say 75 years ago we were not then much different for instance in the women's place in societty than they are now. Can not they evolve too?
There are 1.2 billion Muslim's in the world and 15-25% of those are extremists. Which makes a possible 300 million of Extreme Muslim's that's a hell of a lot and a. helluva problem for the West. But that still leaves the 75% who are moderate Muslim's.
The reason for this is post is mainly how Zia Yusef is treated and why people left Reform beause he was giving a top role. Zia Is a Muslim but I don't think any reasonable person sees him as anything else but a British patriot.
I do not disagree with you. How Zia Yusuf and Laila Cunningham have been treated is disgraceful. I have a personal friend who is a Bangladeshi-born British citizen who is a Reform councillor who was elected in May 2025. He was photographed at an event where Zia and Nigel met newly elected councillors and the photo was published on a Reform social media page. Some of the comments were utterly disgusting. My friend recently completed the hajj but his day job is owning a pub. He serves alcohol and non-halal food. He is a family man and committed to looking after his residents in a small town in Lincs. And the vast majority of those people are white British or eastern European. He represents everyone.
But you didn't engage with my devil's advocate point. If you haven't read @danburmawi may I recommend him for an interesting perspective?
If Muslim's were largely white I honestly don't believe the same kind of abuse your friend had would exist. And there is a word for that.
I thought I did by saying they are about 75 years behind us in some of our practices esp for instance when it comes to women's roles. That doesn't mean they won't evolve over time. It doesn't seem likely to me, but at one time for instance women to have the freedom they do now here and in the West was unthinkable. And it was only 100 years ago where women must not show even an ankle.
It's like the Crusades. The church did a lot of damage and during the Protestant Reformation. I get what you said about it has evolved but if Islam is ever going to evolve it will take much longer given the countries involved.
Yes correct and there’s a other terrorist attacks now more than ever in the past
Muslim's still commit most of the terror attack if not all. It's hard to me think of a Terror attack. in the last 25 years that has not been by Islamic extremists.
All 7 out of 10 commenters can talk about when you talk of Moderate muslims is terrorism.
Which rather proves the point. Intellectual honesty is not possible with that kind of bias toward an entire religion or ideology. It precludes it.
I get it, but it doesn’t make it right or speak of open minds.
Islam itself comes from so many different cultures too it stands to sense they are not going to be all the same.
I can believe what you say, JUST.
But the problem is that I know of NO MODERATE MUSLIMS DECRYING EXTREMISM on internet sites. I live near a huge Muslim area. A teacher at a school tried to discuss Mohamed. His life is in danger. He’s gone into hiding. They want to kill him. He’s on,y young and his life is in ruins. More importantly it may be terminated. The police in the U.K. are too woke to be of much help.
So is he in hiding from extremists wishing to kill him? Maybe. I don’t know. But one thing I am certain of is I don’t hear ANY ‘Moderate’ Muslim protests. Either they are not moderate when it comes to criticism of big Mo, or they are shit scared of being targeted themselves. Neither option really backs up your argument.
So you use one awful, disgraceful instance to dismiss 1.2 billion people.
Where's the logic in that or the intellectual honesty?
I could produce dozens of instances. Thats just an EXAMPLE. And you know it. And I’m talking of the U.K. here, not 1.2 billion, in that population there are zillions of cases where extremism rules. Look at the Afghan women. All under servitude. Babies are chosen as brides! Women have to wear a burka and can’t even speak in public. No moderates speak up for them. They would be slaughtered.
Look at the decimation of Christians by extremists workdwide. No moderates speak up for them.
It’s you who’s being dishonest.
Show me the list of Muslim moderates speaking up against extremism.
You're proving my point by your hatred of Islam.
Yes I do hate Islam. You seem to love it. Islam needs a reformation.
Sharia Law, First cousin marriage, Ha Al meat, homophobia, wearing of Islamic dress, especially the burka for example. These have no place in a modern Western democracy. And most of all Left wing idiots trying to destroy free speech by trying to introduce a law against Islamophobia.
You can think whatever you like with your hatred and deluded little world. You can’t have an intellectually honest discussion about it because your hatred precludes you from it.
You didn’t deal with the actual article at all anything but.
All you are talking about Islam not dealing with the issue in the post at all
Yuo haven't dealt with the issue at all. Just gaslit
Please show me your list of moderate Muslims denouncing extremists and I will acceot your argument. I think Yusef is an honourable, brave exception
Why would I do that? It's got nothing to with the precept. I have seen a very brave Muslim woman stand before a camera a say it and say how she hates what this country has become.
If Christians faced persecution in the West the churches would be empty. But. you expect more of Muslims when actually the consequences for speaking out can be dire.
You are arguing now that Zia Yusef is the only honourable Muslim man in the country. That's absurd
No you twist words. Zia Yusef is a brave honourable Muslim. But where are the rest?
Normal every day Muslims. I see NO evidence of them speaking out on local web sites around Bradford. They are hurt by the Pakistani rape gangs, but either try to say whites do the same or say they are an aberration. NOT that Islam’s attitude to women is at fault.
That teacher who spoke about Mohamed ( the pedo ) had a mass demonstration at his school. He was scared shitless. I have seen NO accounts of moderate Muslims defending him.
Christians face retribution throughout the world. U.K. mostly Jews.
I think we are actually on the same side. The 2 forces holding back criticism of Islam are the mullahs and the extremists. Plus the Left backing up Islam under 2 Tier Kier.
Only a Reform ( and possibly Conservative coalition ) can erase these 2 stains on democracy. And allow Muslims to develop the courage to ‘come out’.
OK Thats it. I’ve had my say and will leave it at that.
And that is true. It doesn't mean because 75% of them are peaceful that I want them here as we d on't know who is who. We shouldn't have to think about it.
To say Christians don't commit terror on religious grounds is entirely false. It's all about interpretation. They rape children on religious grounds too. like in the LDS.
You are just diverting from the actual as have 8 out of ten commentators y ou can’t get past the word Muslim.
I asked for intellectual honesty but people are so blinded by they have no hope. I’m done here.
This article has the distinct whiff of a strawman about it. I had no inclination to know or understand more about the cultures or religions of others when the education system and telebox first started suggesting that I should and 40 years of being ever more persistently beaten over the head with eloquent, well reasoned and logical arguments for the benefits of multiculturalism has oddly made me even less inclined.
In the early 19th century only Anglicans could hold public office or sit as MPs, how far we've tumbled in such a short space of history. The problem with these people is they breed at quite a rate (https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15851731/Birth-rates-plunge-50-year-low-foreign-born-parents-account-record-four-ten-official-figures-show.html) and, sooner or later, they start getting ideas about telling the indigenous people how they should be running their country. And we've all experienced first hand the good, the bad and the ugly of in-group preference.
Comparing Islam and Christianity is not this easy. In theological terms the Old Testament is tempered and interpreted by the New. Jesus injunction to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", coupled with St Pauls instructions to Christians that they should respect and obey the laws of their government and as far as possible live at peace with everyone are powerful pointers to how Christians are expected to behave. The Koran, interpreted through the Hadith, does not temper religious law nor encourage peaceful and respectful relations with non believers who should be forced to pay taxes to stay violence against them or be executed without mercy. This uncompromising world view is exploited by Islamists to shame and radicalize those 'moderate' muslims into activism.
No one is comparing them. You seem to be.
Why is there no author/writer identified? Plus it would be very helpful if the Sharia Law was mentioned and explained.
The author doesn’t need to be identified It’s Substack. Even this most commentators want to make it about Islam and have completely missed the point.